A Very Cobham Christmas

Pretty good, pretty good. I'm looking forward to some quite conte centric discussion. I think that's what I'm bringing to the table.

I always call you a veritable veteran. You're only getting one year contracts at this stage, aren't you?

Exactly. Yeah. Cech didn't stop in the mix zone, surprisingly, and he looked appropriately downcast. Yeah. It's a strange one for his legacy. Also for Olivier Giroud scoring against Arsenal in a European final, and that run.

He was, yeah. I mean, for me, it was some of the most emphatic proof of the decade that trophies will just find Chelsea. Whatever happens, however the season has gone, however bizarre it's been, however toxic it's been at times, they always find a way to win. That's why I always describe them as the most successful basket case in European football. But the other thing I remember from that final, apart from the six flights that was just tobacco, is the Hazard final. I mean, it was one of those where this is what the great players do where possible, they write their own endings. And he knew going in this was going to be the end of his Chelsea career. He scored the winning penalty in the semi final against Eintracht Frankfurt to set it all up. And I think as soon as it got to that point, he was like, I'm not going to lose. And I didn't think there was a huge amount to separate Chelsea and Arsenal on the day apart from him. He decided in the second half to be the difference and scored two goals overall. Just terrorized the Arsenal defense every time he got the ball. And it was a fitting end to a career that I'm sure will come on to him in the signings of the decade. But you know, that saw him be sort of the engine of Chelsea success for all that time.

But well, I am. I almost missed my connection flight from Tbilisi to Baku on the way there. Ended up having a 15 minute connection in Georgia. So apparently Georgia's very nice. I don't know, I'll have to go back. But I was on the same flight as a few Chelsea and Arsenal fans and there were. The only alternative if we actually missed that flight was a 10 hour cab across the border from a few and a few did that. I know, I know a couple that did it and while it's admirable, you know the lengths that they'd go to to get to that game, it was ridiculous that people were forced to those, those lengths or fans that have been to every big Chelsea game for the last 20, 30 years didn't actually go to that one. I think that's a bit of a shame.

Yeah, definitely. Certainly the centerpiece of his Chelsea legacy, I think. And also Fernando Torres actually fulfilled the sort of Olivier Giroud role that season and scored quite a lot of goals, including in the final. And you do see some pretty big parallels actually between both Europa League runs. Both times Chelsea kind of sleepwalked to the final, playing almost, you know, no one really, until they finally decided to take it seriously once the trophy was in sight. And both were overseen by pretty toxic unpopular managers. And the reason why I think the Benitez one gets the nod over the Sarri one is because I think that season was just such an ordeal. They played 69 games in all competitions, which was more than any other season in the decade. You had the 10,000 mile sojourn to Japan that ended in complete disappointment and Chelsea looked exhausted about halfway through that season. That's why I actually think at the end of that season that was borne out in the, in the way that they were able to come up in the 93rd minute of the 69th game with, with the winning goal against a pretty good Benfica side.

We asked him when I wrote a piece about a month or two ago about that final, we asked Rafa sort of about his memories of the final. And he was like, well, I was really pleased with the winning goal because it was exactly what we'd worked on in training. There's no mention of the emotion or anything. I don't think he likes to dwell on that. But it was clearly meant a lot to me, him at the time. And I think it was quite a nice moment for him and obviously a nice end to what really had been a proper ordeal of a season for Chelsea.

Certainly in the second half of the season, it was kind of Mourinho reverting to type in the second half of the season, particularly after that 53 loss to Spurs. But I think if you look back a bit further, the football Chelsea actually played in the first three, four months of that year to put themselves in position to win the title was really, really impressive. And, you know, with Fabregas and Matic, that midfield axis was perfectly balanced. Diego Costa was the perfect striker for that kind of Mourinho team. It just all seemed to suddenly click into place just with those two new players and an emerging Thibaut Courtois, obviously as well. And I think the thing I remember from the second half of the season is Eden Hazard really coming up big down the stretch when Costa was getting hamstring injuries and Chelsea were lacking a little bit in the final third. That was the first time, I think, in Hazard's career that he really took on the responsibility as Chelsea's main man, which he held from that point on. And I think that he still rates that as his best season at Chelsea in terms of performance, if not maybe stats. And I'd be inclined to agree with him. I think it was an impressive achievement for him and clearly one that bolstered Mourinho's legacy which has maybe come under scrutiny since he left Chelsea. But Judas is still number one.

I was wondering how you'd handle the end.

Especially when you consider that the, the place was a flaming mess by the time Mourinho was, was sacked in, in 2015. And okay, they'd had about you know, a sort of six month palate cleanser under Gus Hiddink. About six months of draws as I recall in the Premier League. But this was a really big job for Conte and I think what impressed me most, it was probably still the most fun I've had covering a season because you saw Conte thinking his way through all the time and I really like that approach to management where he came in, assessed what he had and thought right now what system works best and he actually came in wanting to play 4, 2, 4 and that's what Chelsea played in pre season. As you can imagine, fabregas in a two man midfield in a 4, 2, 4 was wide open. So quickly changed to 4, 3, 3. Playing Kante in the sort of Makalele role which he's never played. But then once they lose to Liverpool, they lose to Arsenal, he thinks again. And that September international break is maybe the most consequential international break Chelsea have ever had. He drills the 3, 4, 3 in what seems like no time at all and he gives the rest of the Premier League a problem they can't solve because the way Chelsea implemented that system, they basically had a front five when they had the ball and it forced teams to either match up and sacrifice their own attack or try and play with the back four and get overrun. And by the time anyone developed any sort of counters to it, Chelsea had won 13 games in a row and won the league. It was so impressive to me. The single biggest coaching achievement I've seen I think at Chelsea just for the creativity of it, the versatility of it and the way he put otherwise fairly limited players. Particularly, you know, you're thinking of like Marcus Alonso who's not a fullback but excellent wing back. Victor Moses reinvents him as a wing back in positions to succeed and he also freed up his best players, Hazard, Costa, to play some of the best football of their Chelsea careers. I thought it was a brilliant achievement.

I've never seen a Chelsea team that looked so secure on a back foot. They won so many of those games where they'd maybe be slow for the first 20 minutes, they'd lure the other team out and then score with their first attack. They were so, so ruthless, which is not something we associate with Chelsea in the last couple of years, but I think that's what really, really won Them that league was that every single chance they got it felt like they took. And you know, beating City home in a way the landscape of the Premier League maybe helped them a little bit. City weren't quite ready, spurs weren't quite ready. But someone had to step up and take that title. And I think it speaks volumes for Conte that Chelsea were the ones to do it.

It all comes down to this one kick of the ball by Didier Drogba. Yeah. And it's the greatest night in Chelsea's history. Champions of Europe at last.

Yeah, Mata missed first.

It was like a movie. It really was. And I think for drama, it rivals Istanbul in 2005 because maybe not, you know, you don't have the single game comeback that, that, that Liverpool victory was. But the drama extended over three matches, essentially both legs of the Barcelona tie. And then Bayern Munich beating, you know, the two best teams in Europe. Really, you know, that was Pep Guardiola's Barcelona and then a Bayern team that would win the treble the next year. The torturous memory of what had happened in their own stadium. It was, it was an amazing run. And Dom, you know, mentioned about destiny, but there were also so many moments, as you say, where you'd think, okay, their name's on the trophy. This is too spooky. And then something else would happen where you think, oh, it's over immediately, almost immediately, with the, you know, with the Messi and Robben penalties and so many different things that happened. The Terry Red card of course as well at The NOU camp and for Drogba as well, it sort of completed a circle I think because I think he felt a personal debt in some ways after getting sent off in the 2008 final in Moscow when he would have been one of the penalty takers. And you know, whether he replaces Terry in that penalty shootout, we don't know. But he clearly felt personally that he had a role to play in that defeat. And for him to be able to step up six goals in eight matches on that run, every one of them absolutely vital to score the header that he did with I think Chelsea was that Chelsea's only attempt on goal in that final was crazy.

Well, I read, I read a section in, in a book a few years ago where Chelsea's preparations for the 2008 final had been equally meticulous for that shootout. And Chelsea's takers knew what Van der Saal's preference was for diving and they all adhered to it perfectly. And then Van der Saal gradually began to suss it out. By the time Anelka misses, you see Van der Saal pointing to the direction he thinks Anelka is meant to go and he, he freaks him out. Chelsea lose. They would have won if Terry hadn't hadn't slipped and put that penalty because they executed that game plan to perfection. But it shows how luck plays role as well. And the odds are always against you when you're the first to miss in a shootout. So then that was another point where mata Mrs. In 2012 where you just think, right, Bayern are going to win it now. Especially with Neuer. I mean, he looked so big. I remember Ashley Cole talking about it doing an interview and he's saying he just looked so big in that goal and he'd bang the crossbar and bang the posts and really try and psych you out. And Chelsea's penalties, aside from matters, were absolutely brilliant. And then Drogba said as he was walking up to take the winning penalty, his first thought was Panenka, which is so Drogba. But can you imagine how differently that moment would be remembered if he'd Panenka'd and missed?

Apathy, I think. More than more than active dislike. He's not there anymore, so they don't have to hate him. I think he handled himself really well. He made it clear from the start that he wasn't going to be sticking around. He did his best to diffuse that by about February March, and I think he did a really good job to manage the squad through an endless stretch of games in all competitions and ended up coming out of it with Champions League qualification and the Europa League trophy. So I think bottom line achievements were very good. He came in in highly difficult circumstances in a squad in transition and a club that was trying to sort of redefine itself post 2012, and I think he did pretty well.

I thought there was a decent case for Mourinho to be number one purely because we've spoken about the 2015 title win. But I think also his achievement in 1314 can't be overlooked either.

Exactly. Yeah. The little, albeit rich horse nearly, nearly beat a Liverpool and a Manchester City side that both broke the 100 goal barrier to the Premier League title without a striker. And I think if Chelsea had actually managed that it would have been the, maybe the most impressive coaching achievement of this decade. As it was, they just fell short. The, the home record at Stamford Bridge fell to Sunderland at just the wrong time. But Mourinho did a really good job for two seasons at Chelsea and then he did a really bad job for three, four months and he obviously deserves a demerit for the sort of historic mess that was generated in those last few months and just how toxic it all was. He also deserves a demerit for selling Kevin de Bruyne which I thought was a mistake at the time. This isn't hindsight and maybe not really managing other players very well. Ostracizing one matter, Chelsea lost Salah and Lukaku around that time as well. So he was clearly building for the, for the now rather than the the longer term. And, and in the end I think that that lack of long term planning helped curtail that period of success for Chelsea.

Took us to the pub. He was. He took us to the pub.

Near the chair, the Plough? Yes, yeah, both. Both Christmases he did that. He was certainly the most personable Chelsea manager I've covered away from sort of press conferences and so every time you'd see him around Cobham, he'd come and shake a hand and yeah, he was very, very polite. Joined in. I know he joined some of the Chelsea star five A side games with his game face on a couple of times. Yeah, he was, I think, a great coach, a terrible politician. That's just the way you surmise it. And I think what impressed me most in 1617 was when he had problems. He found creative coaching solutions on the pitch by changing systems, by reinventing players. In his second season, it felt like he deliberately stopped looking for solutions because he wanted to prove a political point that I don't have the players that I want in certain positions. And the moaning became everything rather than just an accompaniment to what was happening on the pitch. And it was clear by January, February, that second season that it was fundamentally broken between him and the board. He was lobbing grenades left and right in every press conferen and it was still a big achievement to win that FA cup. But you know, when you've got players cropping him out of pictures with emojis afterwards tells you something about what the atmosphere was like behind the scenes.

A good player who enjoyed a great career, an absolutely great career. I mean, to. To think that within two and a half years of joining he'd won Every major domestic and European trophy. I'm sure when he was, when he arrived he didn't expect it to go quite that well but. And he was a starter for a lot of those games. You know, with the, with the Champions League final, obviously Terry wasn't available and you know, there were injuries for certain things. Him and Louise manned the fort with I think one and a half working hamstrings between them and Munich and, and he just showed that he was whatever his limitations were as a player and he did have them, he was a solid defender who had a big game attitude and I think, you know, I think he almost is remembered less fondly by some Chelsea fans because he had a similar problem to what Jordan Henderson had in that he succeeded the most popular and greatest captain in the club's history and he wasn't John Terry. But that shouldn't really be a criticism. He was a really good player for Chelsea for a long, long time and was absolutely central to all their successes.

Simon Johnson's not been the same since he's left.

The one undeniable world class player in the current squad, isn't he? God bless release clauses. I think that, you know, that's the message really from that Leicester signing. Obviously burst onto the scene as part of that fairy tale, as the engine of that fairy tale and then became the first player since Eric Cantona to win back to back premier leagues with two different teams. That achievement says it all. He swept the individual awards as well at the end of that season, didn't he? Was so central to the way Conte set that team up as well because they were all geared around winning the ball and going in transition and him and Matic in midfield sort of springing those transitional opportunities were just absolutely pivotal. And Kante was amazing to watch that season. He's not the flariest player but he'd just turn up all over the pitch in different spots. I think I saw him tackle two players at the same time once as well in a game against West Ham and also receive his own pass over by the time, just absolutely everywhere. I've never seen a player quite like him. And, and he's been absolutely pivotal to Chelsea from the day he arrived.

Conte and Sarri both called him that.

Yeah, I mean we talk about Kante being two players in one. Azpilicueta was three players in one, wasn't he? A left back, a right back, a center back, whatever you needed from him to be. And yeah, that one on one defensive ability is clearly his biggest strength. But he had such a phenomenal engine as well to play a Lampard esque number of consecutive games before I think the end of the run. He was rested, wasn't he? He wasn't injured. He didn't need to to not play in the Swansea at home. Yes. Yeah it was something like 74 games, wasn't it in a row? Yeah, phenomenal, phenomenal signing led by example on and off the pitch. Has adapted to it to a lot of different managers and everything that's been asked of him and he continues to be absolutely crucial. People want to retire him for Rhys James and I understand why because Rhys James is a great young talent but Azpilicueta is going to have something to say about that because he's, you know, we've seen that throughout his career.

Most talented maybe.

It looked like Coquelain was falling off a bike.

But he was too likable for it to overcome a massive issue.

Yes, that's the one. I think three nutmegs in that move beat Alberto Moreno twice, which is maybe not the biggest achievement in that run. But yeah, a phenomenal player and the mentality of a showman, I think as well. A bit of a throwback in that way when, you know, we're in an age where it's all about numbers, about goals, about assists and these astronomical scorers. And Hazard had the talent to be one of those players, I think. And you know, the biggest criticism of him in the wider world is that he didn't have that killer drive of a Messi or Ronaldo, despite being probably, as you know, at least comparably talented to some of those. But I almost feel like that makes him a more romantic figure in a way that he was. He wanted to entertain every single week and he was happy if that ended up being just one goal or one assist. He was happy to be clearly the best player on any pitch he ever walked on and give people a few moments of oohs and ahs to take home with them, preferably with a Chelsea win. But he also came up big in big games. You know, I think a lot of people don't remember that well enough, but you look at his record against all of Chelsea's domestic rivals in the league, and it's really, really good. And he scored big goals in finals as well. And I think he may not have, in terms of his production, the most impressive resume of any Chelsea player ever or any huge player of this modern era. But clearly the player that Chelsea built everything around post 2012 and they're still trying to find a new identity without him now. He's left a massive hole.

6 million profit in a minute.

Sam.